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Because this article is so long, I have divided it into eight (8) parts. The article is not divided according to any subject or sub topic, but simply by space segments. The parts are to serve a book markers so that a person can read a portion of the article at a time and easily find the place where they left off when they want to return to read more.
Click on any of the following links to go to that corresponding portion of the article.
Part 1 | Part 2 | Part 3 | Part 4 | Part 5 | Part 6 | Part 7 | Part 8 | Rebuttal
Part 1
This is in response to the article which follows, on Christianity and Goths which was posted on the internet at the Xanga blog web site.
In essence this article addresses the question, “Is it alright for a Christian to also be a Goth?” OR “Can the Goth culture coexist harmoniously with Christianity, or is there a conflict in principles between the two?” The writer, Nathan Boutwell expresses his view supporting the concept of Goth culture mixing well with Christianity. I strongly disagree and here I will express my opposing view.
First let me say that I am not judging Goths here. That is God’s job. I can judge no man because I am a flawed human being. Only God is worthy to judge man. As a Christian however, I can evaluate “things”; things such as teachings, doctrines, cultures, spirits, etc... This is an important point to be made before I begin to express my view, because there may be areas here where I will express my disagreement very passionately.
I will be going into the body of the article to express my views in detail, but first I will generalize by saying the reason I disagree with the author is that the principles of Christianity and the Goth culture are very much in conflict. It’s not simply a case of them not being the same, but in most cases they seem to even be opposite. The differences in principles and beliefs between Christianity and Gothism (new word), are so great that I quiet frankly was astounded that anyone could compare these two sets of beliefs and values and conclude that they can mix without conflict.
Now I will go into the body of the article below and comment. My comments will be in Green text. Scriptures from the bible will be displayed in bold white text and will be indented.
What is a Christian Goth?
Another question just as applicable as “Can you be a Christian and Goth?” is “Should a Christian be a Goth?” Perhaps that question should read "can you be a Christian and a Goth?"
There are many sincere Christians who would say NO!
Perhaps just as applicable would be the question, “How committed and dedicated of a Christian can you be if you are a Goth?” A person can be almost anything and also be a lukewarm, cold indifferent, uncommitted Christian that is out of fellowship with God.They are sincere, but they are sincerely wrong.
Opinions are fine, but without the backing of solid facts or some greater authority, they are only opinions lacking in validation. The only source for truth on this subject is the bible. Throughout this article I notice that the author seems to give his opinions without any scripture to support his statements. The author says that Christians who think differently from himself are wrong which is an absolute statement, yet lacking in validity because it lacks support. It does not matter what the author nor myself says is right or wrong, but it is what God says through his word that matters, and I plan to use scripture throughout this rebuttal to support my stand.
They genuinely believe that to be a Christian, you should want to live in a million dollar home, have 4.5 children, drive a Lexus and wear an Armani suit. Their response to the way you look is based on their own culture -- a culture that in no way reflects true America, or the Gospel. It is based on religious racism -- "You can't be a Christian because you don't look like me." This they genuinely believe because most of them grew up in churches and all they saw were mirrors of themselves. Since this is how all of them and their friends look, they believe that all Christians should look and act and be this way.
I have no idea how the author is able to know the hearts of the Christians that disagree with him. I disagree with his viewpoint to the utmost degree, but I do not fit the author’s description regarding attitudes and beliefs. I know many other Christians who would not agree with him and don’t match his description. There certainly may be some Christians who both disagree with the author and fit his description of what he believes their character is. However he is wrong in assumption that all Christians who disagree with him fit this materialistic and judgmental characterization. Most of the Christians, are not like this at all. We should all be careful about making such broad statements that generalize and stereotype based on a single belief.In the immortal words of Robert Ripley -- "Don't you believe it!"
Nowhere does God command that a Christian look and live like this.I agree. We certainly are not commanded to take on the look of the proud or to live with the attitudes the author describes above. I don’t however see this as being the alternative to NOT embracing the Goth culture as being compatible with Christianity. I believe the better way is to reject both the Goth culture as well as these traits that the author seems to suggest are the characteristics of all those who reject Gothism.
In fact, what the Bible says about the Christian life is far closer to Goth culture than our typical American middle class culture.
I do not believe the teachings of Christianity as revealed in God’s word is close to EITHER the Goth culture or the typical American culture of ANY class.
A Goth is not just someone who wears black. Johnny Cash wore black, and he was a rockabilly.A few lines back, the author commented on how the Christian that does not believe that Gothism and Christianity are compatible believes that good Christians should look like they do with their Armani suits. I don’t know where the author gets this notion. He certainly has not been around the Christians that I know. The bible does however have some things to say about appearances.
Abstain from all appearance of evil.
1 Thessalonians 5:2One might try to make an argument about the appearance of evil being a matter of interpretation or in the eyes of the beholder. What appears to be evil to one may not appear to be evil to another. I’ve heard that come-back before and for me it carries no weight. If you are going to apply that logic, then you could not say that anything is absolute in it’s appearing to be evil. If you do that, then it makes the commandment vain and impossible to apply. It’s the word of God however, and I believe He intends for us to use the common sense he gives us to discern evil appearances from the rest.
Certainly dressing in black alone does not constitute the appearance of evil. But all black with black fingernail polish and the make-up they wear, all combines to produce an appearance of something commonly associated with such cultures as Satanism, or witchcraft. Some may disagree with that, but for myself and I believe many others this is what the Goth look reminds us of, and what it reminds people of is what counts here.
One can say that Gothism has nothing to do with Satanism or witchcraft, but that is not the issue. The issue is that it does in fact have a connection in appearance and causes people to make that association. It makes no difference if you argue that people should not judge on appearances and people should not make that association. What matters is that they DO, and since they do, the Goth look does have an appearance of evil to many people and the bible says to abstain from it. To not abstain from it is to be disobedient and that is sin.
A Goth is not just someone who likes skulls. Pirates liked skulls.
The author should have picked a better example, because pirates were not very godly men either.
Part 2
A Goth is not just someone with a morbid fascination with death.
I assume then that since the author is as much as admitted that Goths have a morbid fascination with death, that he also believes there is nothing wrong with that. Jesus is about “LIFE”. Jesus is about eternal life.
Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.
John 8:12Why be fascinated by something that Jesus has conquered?
Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: 26And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
John 11:25First we see from the above scripture that Jesus identifies with life itself. As a Christian should we not be fascinated with Jesus, our Lord and Savior? Can we be both fascinated with Jesus and also the opposite of what he is? Let me break it down. Jesus is life. Death is opposite of life. To be fascinated with death is to be fascinated with that which is opposite of Jesus. This seems to be very double minded to me.
A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.
James 1:8Does it make sense to be a partaker of the bread of life while holding a morbid fascination with death? No, it doesn’t make sense at all. Of course this only applies to the born again.
I am that bread of life. Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead. 50This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die. am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world. The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat? Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. or my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him. As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me. This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.
John 6:48-58The local mortician has a fascination with death, and usually they qualify as geeks.
A Goth is someone with a transcendent soul; someone who is in touch with her own heart. She knows life sucks.I don't believe a true Christian believes that life sucks. We have a joyful and abundant life given to us by Christ.
The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.
John 10:10The above scripture tells me that Jesus gives us a more abundant life; not a life that sucks. So if a person thinks life sucks, they need Jesus in their life and they will be delivered from the misery that causes them to believe that life sucks. This does not mean that the Christian will not suffer trials, tribulations, and persecution. The miraculous state of being saved and living for Jesus is that we can have peace and joy in spite of these trials and tribulations. The fact that we are able to have this peace an joy though we suffer many afflictions is part of what makes us a peculiar people. Much of the joy comes from the blessed hope that we have that one day all our burddens and sorrows will be forever vanished. We can already rejoice in that promise because we know God is faithful in his promises.
A Christian has joy in Jesus.
Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.
Acts 2:28But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God.
Acts 20:24Notice in the above scripture, the fact that we as Christians can have joy even in the midst of our afflictions. We find joy from many avenues in Christ. One cause for our joy is the atonement we have received having had our sins forgiven and thereby achieving eternal life.
And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.
Romans 5:11Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.
Luke 10:20Our joy is in the hope we have. It is in the promises of God for the redeemed. We have not yet received these things, but we can rejoice already because God is just in keeping his promises. Knowing the glory which lies ahead for us enables us to rejoice and have peace now even while we live in the midst of corruption, and all manner of evil.
If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
1 Corinthians 15:19Careful how you read that last scripture, the “If” makes all the difference. The verse actually means that we are NOT miserable because we DO have hope in a life beyond this one.
For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
Romans 8:18But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
1 Corinthians 2:9God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?
Numbers 23:19Part 3
I have written a lot here about peace and joy in the midst of tribulations. I have supported that concept with scripture. Peace in the midst of tribulation is difficult for the world to understand. The scriptures even acknowledge that it is difficult to understand, yet contained in the same scripture is the acknowledgement that it is never the less true.
And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.
Philippians 4:7Jesus says we can even have joy when we are severely persecuted.
Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. 12Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.
Matthew 5:11-12How can you praise our Lord with a heart void of peace and joy? Does our praises not come from the joy of our salvation? Christians are commanded to be a witness to the lost. We are charged with the duty of spreading the gospel and in doing all we can to lead as many people to Jesus as we can. How can we lead anyone to Christ with a constant attitude of depression and hopelessness? Why would a lost person want what we have if all they see in us is sadness and gloom? How can we be enthusiastic about doing the Lord’s work while being in a constant state of depression?
Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men. Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid. 15Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house. Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.
Matthew 5:13-16No one with such a dreary outlook on life, looking like they just came from a Satanic ritual with their black fingernail polish and make-up would have been successful in leading me to Christ. Even when I was lost, I knew enough to know that these were not the traits of a born again Christian.
Bottom line is that a Christian living in God’s will, has joy in their life regardless of their situation or condition. People who live in a constant state of gloom either need to be saved or they need to begin living their life according to God’s will and dedicate their life to God. You can not be fully dedicated to God while being dedicated to other things contrary to the teachings of God’s word.
No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.
Matthew 6:24This whole negative outlook and walking around in a state of sadness is contrary to the will of God. God does want us to have burdens for lost people, but that is different. Our burden is that many are walking around like the Goths, not knowing the joy of knowing Christ as savior and Lord of their life. Our burden is that many are on their way to Hell because they don’t know Him. We love people and desire for all of them to know the joy that we know.
It is no wonder that the Goth is in a state of gloom. If a Goth has been saved, then the Goth lifestyle is one that is contrary to God’s will as revealed in His word. A person can not have peace when they are living outside of God’s will. Yes, we all sin, but there is a difference in stumbling and falling into sin and knowingly diving head first into it. Peace and joy is found in being in fellowship with God and putting off the things of this world. When a Christian is out of fellowship with God the bible tells us plainly that life will be hard. God will not bless over sin.
Good understanding giveth favour: but the way of transgressors is hard.
Proverbs 13:15Fully commit to God and begin serving Him and you can have peace and joy in your heart. Fully committing to God means you must lay aside the things contrary to His word.
Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us
Hebrews 12:1She knows her life is a walk upon the edge of a knife blade. She knows that one drunk driver, one gunshot, one fight between her parents, and it's all over.
Exactly how is this specific to Goths? None of us have any promise of tomorrow, so the Goths are nothing special in this regard. None of us has a promise of tomorrow. We know that God could call us home at any given time and in any way of His choosing, but that doesn’t make us become Goths.
As Christians we also do not walk around in fear of what might happen at the next turn; we simply have peace in the fact that whatever does happen that God is with us and that when our time here on Earth is done, we will be in Heaven with Him for ever.
For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.
2 Timothy 1:7She knows her heart and she knows the pain that is in her. And she has the courage and knowledge to admit it.
The courage to admit the pain and sorrows of life? I always thought complaining came easy and that choosing not to whine about your problems is what takes courage. Christians can do that because we have Jesus who is always with us and he is there. He may not always deliver us out of every difficult circumstance nor take our suffering away. Sometimes we need to experience some hardship for our Christian growth. Also, it has already been covered here that Christians will indeed face afflictions. However those things that God does not deliver us from, he goes through them with us. He is always their to draw strength from and to comfort us. You ever heard the song, “Press On Weary Pilgrim, Press On”? We press on with a sense of peace that blows our sorrows to smithereens. It is not the Christian way to murmur and complain. Oh some Christians do complain indeed. I have been guilty of it myself. I’m just saying we are not suppose to.
A Goth is someone who wears this pain on the outside, letting the world know that she has been kicked, maimed, crippled, but she still stands.
A Christian is someone who lets that light within them, which is Jesus shine forth for the world to see for the Glory of God and for the drawing of the lost as a witness to them.
Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.
Matthew 5:16Part 4
She still walks, each step reminding her of the blow that felled her, the parent who left her, the so-called friend who betrayed her.
The Christian in fellowship with God walks in communion with God. He ponders often on how God rescued him from a lowly state of hopelessness and has set him up on a solid foundation with a new song of praise on his lips. He marvels at God’s redeeming grace. He yearns with great anticipation for the glory that awaits him in Heaven.
She cries at the falling of a rose petal, for it reminds her of her own mortality, her own fading beauty that no one sees or appreciates.
You are hard up for something to mourn for if your mortality makes you sad. I’m mortal, but I know one who is immortal and has all power in Heaven and Earth. With Him all things are possible. I am his child because he loved me enough to make me His son. I don’t need immortality, because I have God and he supplies all my needs according to His riches. Though it does not bother me to be mortal, I know that one day I will have an immortal body free from the afflictions, corruption, disease, aging, and death. Focus on the Lord, study His word, be about doing His work and you will not be pondering on such useless things like your immortality.
Yet she goes on, enshrining that rose petal in another tattoo.
Getting tattoos is an ungodly thing to do. Many people disagree, I know. I will not address that any further here however, because I could write a ten page article on that subject alone and this reply is going to be long enough as it is. I will only add that tattoos are of the world and we are to be separated from the world. They call attention to one’s self and we are not to exalt the flesh, but rather lift up our Lord. A Christian wants for people to see Jesus when the look at him, and not the world.
She knows the horror of her father not coming home, so she pierces her lip to remind herself of her loss -- this ring is for you, Dad.
She pierces her lip because her Dad didn’t come home?? I think she just wanted to get her lip pierced and she would have done it whether he came home or not. Life is bad and I have problems so I’ll go get piercings and tattoos and it will make it better. Is that the thought process here? By the way, piercing falls into the same category as tattoos. Everything I said about tattoos applies to piercings too.
A Goth is someone who believes he will not live much longer. He knows the frailty of his own soul, that he cannot withstand the consumerism and competition that life demands.My life on earth may be fragile and as I said, there is no promise of tomorrow, but my SOUL is secure having been washed in the blood of the Lamb! That’s one worry that Christian does not have. It’s what it’s all about!
He cannot possibly hope to be better than the other 10,000 people applying for the same position, so he doesn't try.
Perhaps he should pray. The bible says we have not because we ask not and when we ask, we ask without believing. The bible says that all things work toward the good for he who loves the Lord and are called according to his purpose. The bible says we can do all things through Christ who strengthens us. The bible says God will supply all our needs according to His riches. The bible says that the righteous shall be like a tree planted by the river’s water and his leaf shall not wither and whatsoever he doth shall prosper. The bible says to trust in the Lord. The bible says that we are more than conquerors in Christ. The bible says that the righteous are not forsaken nor their seed begging bread. The bible says seek ye first the kingdom of Heaven and all these things shall be added unto you.
Don’t go it alone. Lean on God. Where is your faith. To not try is to not have faith when the bible plainly tells we can do all thing through Christ who strengthens us. Now of course every one of these promises apply to the Christian seeking to live in God's will. Could it be that the reason the Goths seem to not cling to these promises is that the Goth lifestyle is not God’s will? Could it be that some people have a counterfeit salvation and have never really become that new creature in Christ, to which these promises apply?
He was born dead. His body just doesn't know it yet. He knows that life and all it has to offer will kill him -- the materialism, the agendas of others, the cold heartlessness of Wall Street, the hell-bent mentality of a nation that must go to war.
Jesus offers eternal life and a more abundant life in the here and now. Yes you will die, we all will die, unless the Lord comes first and then the saved who are alive and remain will be called up to be with the Lord forever. The wages of sin are death, but the gift of God is eternal life. Again focus on Jesus, his promises, and the work he has given you to do. Lean on him as you pass through this world and in the meantime occupy with a joyful heart for the glory that is to come.
Yes this world is a corrupt and dreadful place, but we are not of this world. If you focus on serving Him, you will not have time to dwell on the state of this world.
So he prepares himself for his own funeral, now, while he's alive to enjoy his own wake. He embalms himself, dresses in his funereal finery and sets out how he wants to be remembered, knowing that no one will do it for him once he's actually dead.
Well funeral preparation is not a bad idea. It sure takes a burden off the loved ones left behind to make arrangements. He prepares himself for his funeral…. Time would be better spent preparing for the day of judgment. How many people have you led to Christ? How was your prayer life? Were you well studied in God’s word? Did you attend services regularly? Were you a light to this lost and dying world? Did you do a work for the Lord? Did you praise Him openly and shamelessly before others for the glory of God? Did you put off the things of the world and live a life separated from the things of this world? These will be the questions that matter on that day of judgment. and not whether or not you prepared yourself for your funeral.
You want a spiritual funeral? Then live a spirit filled life.
So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.
Romans 14:12For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
2 Corinthians 5:10Mom and Dad don't care for him while he's alive -- all they do is throw another Play Station at him, another wad of cash, but no hugs, no true "I love you's". So why should they care when he's dead? Maybe his few friends will care and help him celebrate his meaningless life and death now.
Sometimes Mom and Dad love their children more than they realize. They confuse administering discipline or not knowing how to connect with these kids of a different generation as being mean and unloving. Also, to receive respect, you have to show respect. If the parents are not pleased with the “Goth” appearance and customs, then to be a Goth in those conditions is to be rebellious and dishonorable toward your parents and that is sin and that is not the Christian thing to do. Also it is a two way street here…. How often does the Goth tell his parents that he or she loves them?
His life is meaningless only if he did not serve the Lord during his life. If you work for God as a Christian is charged to do, then you have made a difference and your life is not meaningless. But if you have no convictions about doing something for the one who gave His life for you, then your life may be meaningless and worse you will stand before God in shame on judgment. day and have no crown to lay at the feet of your savior.
You want your life to have meaning? Then forget about Goth stuff and concentrate your time and energy in doing a work for the Lord. If you are saved and desire to serve, God WILL give you a work to do. Get busy.
Part 5
A Goth is someone who is ruled by her heart, not her mind, not her wallet, not her culture.
A Christian living in God’s will is lead by the Holy Spirit. To be led by your heart is to be lead by your own conscious, but the bible says there is a way that seems right to man but there in is death. Trust in God and follow him denying your own intuition.
For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
Romans 8:14This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would. But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. And they that are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.
Galtians 5:16-26Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. 6In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.
Proverbs 3:5-6There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.
Proverbs 14:12So, according to all these scriptures, it is not a good idea to follow your heart, but it is wise to be lead by the Holy Spirit.
She does not know that she can only find happiness in being a wife and mother -- she doesn't believe that. She doesn't know that she can only find happiness in being beautiful and owning a BMW and having a MBA -- she doesn't believe that.
I don’t believe those things either. I do believe however, that the road to happiness is found in knowing and following Jesus. I do NOT believe the road to happiness is found in the Goth culture. The author’s own writing in this article serves as a testimony to that fact. Goths don’t seem like a happy bunch to me and it is no wonder.
She believes her heart. And her heart tells her not the way things are, but the way things ought to be, and can never be, because the ones who make the rules will not let them be. And that breaks her heart.
You are not going to find true peace and happiness in the things of this world, but that should not be a cause of depression because the Christian is not of this world. We should not expect to find peace in the things of this world. If we do not expect to find it then we will not be disappointed when it is not there. We need to set our affections on the things of God and look forward to the day of our full redemption in Glory. We do not need to be broken hearted because this world is a mess. It is just exactly the way the bible tells us it will be in the last days. Let the state of this world be a sign that the end is near, meaning two things…
- We need to work hard at the task of trying to get the lost to see Jesus and
- A cause for rejoicing because our day of redemption is drawing near.
This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away. For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts, Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith. But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as theirs also was. But thou hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, charity, patience, Persecutions, afflictions, which came unto me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra; what persecutions I endured: but out of them all the Lord delivered me. Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution. But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived. But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them; And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.
2 Timothy ch. 3If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.
Colossians 3:1-4And her face and clothes are stained with her bitter tears. And she wants you to know that she cries and that you and your culture made her cry.
Tears would be better shed for the lost rather than conceived out of self pity. If she feels persecuted by the world then Jesus said to rejoice which is the opposite of how the author says she feels.
Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.
Matthew 5:11-12I wonder just who the author is referring to in the above statement when he says “you” and “your" culture”. I would like to address that statement, but I really can not since it is not clear just who the author is talking about. If he is talking about the “world” (those outside of knowing Christ in a free pardon of sin, then the scripture I gave addresses that quiet directly. If he is talking about Christians that do not accept Gothism as being compatible with Christianity, then I can only say that when you yield to the truth, it will stop cutting you. It will also set you free.
Part 6A Goth is someone who must express what he feels and sees and try his very best to make a difference.
I too like to express my feelings and view points. That is what I am doing here after all, and the desire to make a difference is an admirable trait. However I believe the Goth would be much more successful in actually making a difference if he/she would stop trying to mix Gothism with Christianity and be fully committed to God. You can not be fully committed to both, especially when the principles of one is in conflict with the other. Sweet water and bitter water do not flow from the same fountain.
Doth a fountain send forth at the same place sweet water and bitter? Can the fig tree, my brethren, bear olive berries? either a vine, figs? so can no fountain both yield salt water and fresh.
James 3:11-12The only way you can ever make a difference (spiritually speaking) is to let God work through you.
But because of the wounds he has endured, he knows that no one will listen. His voice has been silenced by one too many "shut ups" roared at him by the ones society values. The athletes, the beautiful ones, the rich ones, the powerful ones. They have silenced his voice. But not his heart. So he paints. He draws. He sings. He acts. He expresses his heart. Not rage, not anger, but fear, sorrow, pity for the way things could be, the way people could all live together, could all harmonize.
No one will listen because he has endured wounds? I don’t get that. We all have endured wounds, perhaps some greater than others but we all have suffered in one way or another. Our infliction don’t cause us not to be heard however. What would the Goth say if he thought people would listen? I mean other than, “you made me cry”. Perhaps a different message would make people more receptive to what he has to say. Try talking about the Lord rather than yourself. Lift Him up. Give testimony on what the Lord has done for you. Tell people how he saved your soul and how he has enriched your life with spiritual blessings that you can not contain. Tell people of the things God has delivered you out of.
You first have to be born again and have experienced these things to be able to testify of your salvation and deliverance. You have to walk in communion with God to testify of how he has showered you with spiritual blessings. Gothism gets in the way of all these things.
He does not speak because he does not believe anyone will listen, but the bible says “Let the Redeemed say so!” The bible also tells each of us who have been saved to spread the good news of the gospel of Jesus Christ. It’s a little difficult to do that if you decide not to speak because you feel that no one will listen. Not to even try is worse that trying and having failed. Ask God to put others in your path that you can witness to and share your testimony with. Have faith that He will answer your prayer and start telling people about Jesus.
Let the redeemed of the LORD say so, whom he hath redeemed from the hand of the enemy;
Psalm 107:2And the lord said unto the servant, Go out into the highways and hedges, and compel them to come in, that my house may be filled.
Luke 14:23Despite his tears and his black clothes, inside in his deepest soul, the Goth is still the last optimist, for he actually thinks that maybe, someone somewhere will see his art, hear his song, watch his play ... and understand.
Earlier, the author said about the Goth, “She knows life sucks”. That does not seem to be very optimistic to me.
The author also wrote, “She knows her life is a walk upon the edge of a knife blade. She knows that one drunk driver, one gunshot, one fight between her parents, and it's all over.” That doesn’t seem very optimistic to me either.
The author also wrote, “She cries at the falling of a rose petal, for it reminds her of her own mortality, her own fading beauty that no one sees or appreciates.” That doesn’t seem optimistic to me either.
He also wrote, “A Goth is someone who believes he will not live much longer. He knows the frailty of his own soul, that he cannot withstand the consumerism and competition that life demands. That certainly is not an optimistic view.
The author also wrote, “He cannot possibly hope to be better than the other 10,000 people applying for the same position, so he doesn't try.” That doesn’t seem very optimistic to me.
He also wrote, “His body just doesn't know it yet. He knows that life and all it has to offer will kill him -- the materialism, the agendas of others, the cold heartlessness of Wall Street, the hell-bent mentality of a nation that must go to war.” That’s not an optimistic view either.
The author wrote, “And her heart tells her not the way things are, but the way things ought to be, and can never be, because the ones who make the rules will not let them be. And that breaks her heart.” This is not an example of optimism.
The Goth is the last optimist? In a court of law, a witness’s credibility lies largely on the consistency of his testimony. I don’t believe the author would make a very good witness if this were a court case. You can not make this many pessimistic statements and follow them up with a claim to be an optimist without contradicting yourself.
That is a Goth.
And all it lacks to be complete Christian culture is Christ in its center.
To answer our question, "Can you be a Christian and a Goth?" Jesus himself would say "Yes!"Jesus would say, “yes, you can be a Christian AND a Goth?” What scripture supports that? What we have here is a man’s philosophy void of scriptural support.
We wear not our pain on the outside, but the pain of Christ. Every lash he took, every tear he cried, every drop of blood. These have stained our garments.The author says, "We wear not our pain on the outside, but the pain of Christ.", yet previously he wrote, "A Goth is someone who wears this pain on the outside, letting the world know that she has been kicked, maimed, crippled, but she still stands."
I believe the point of Jesus’ suffering is being missed here. Jesus suffered and died so we can have our sins forgiven and have eternal life with unspeakable joy and peace while avoiding that terrible place called Hell. He did not go through the pain so that we will “wear” his pain. The work of the cross has been completed. He finished it, mission accomplished. His lashes the author talks about were for our healing, not for us to continue to bear the pain. We have victory through him.
Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.
1 Peter 2:24The blood of Jesus doesn’t stain our garments (metaphorically speaking) but rather it cleanses us. As Christians we will indeed suffer, yet we have peace in spite of the suffering. This is what makes us a peculiar people. This peace that passes understanding and defies the very things that cause our suffering is part of our witness. This is what the world needs to see in us. Of course you have to have it before you can wear it.
If people look at you and see only pain, how exactly does that make them desire to have what you have?
Part 7
Not black of death, nor black of evil. But black ... the color of all colors, made of all colors. For He has given us all joy and cleansed us so thoroughly that we must wear everything He did at one time. All combined into one. One garment. Black is our garment of praise to our Savior!
We wear black. Black is a color. Darkness is evil. We wear black. You must have light to tell the color black from the color red or the color blue. In darkness all colors look the same; all colors are empty and void of life. But in the light of Christ, where we now live, we wear black to show that we are unafraid of the darkness.
We have been there and He led us out. We wear black as our emblem of honor. Black is not evil. It is a color of life for it is made up of all colors. We wear black to embrace the new life that is ours.
Wow! That is some deep philosophy there. Actually I have no problem with anyone wearing black. I like to wear black sometimes myself. I just like the way it looks. It’s very dressy. I believe the reasons and all the symbolism the author gives for why Goths wear black however, doesn’t make any sense. The only thing wrong with it is when it becomes an obsession or a fetish.
If a Goth does make it to Heaven, what will he say when he is given his white robe? Will he ask, “Excuse me, but I was wondering, Do you have anything in black?”
The author says that you can not tell black from red or any other color in darkness. Are Christians suppose to blend in with the darkness? This world is a place of spiritual darkness and we are suppose to be the light of the world.
Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid. Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house. 16Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.
Matthew 5:14If we are to be a light in the darkness, then would we blend in or stand out? No amount of darkness can dispel the tiniest light, but the tiniest light can dispel the greatest darkness.
Now the author has said that black is the sum of all colors. When it comes to light, however (which is what we are suppose to be), WHITE light is the sum of all colors. This is how natures prism creates the rainbow after a rain.
So if one wants to be all wrapped up in symbolism, then would it not be more logical to wear all white than black, provided there is a true spiritual interest in the symbolism you embrace? Also if this “sum of all colors” philosophy is important to someone they would be able to achieve that by wearing white as well as black since white light contains all colors. Then that person could testify, “I wear all white because as a born again child of God, I am the light of the world and since the sum of all colors of light yields the color white, that is the color I wear.” That would have a much greater spiritual symbolic significance than the philosophy for wearing black.
But I have no problem with someone wearing black. I was just being philosophical here like the author was, which is a waste regarding the real points of this argument, but being philosophical can be fun sometimes!
We prepare ourselves for our own funerals, for we have indeed died to ourselves, for He died for us.
Funerals are for the living. Time would be better spent in preparing for the day of judgment. Working for the Lord winning souls and spreading the gospel, and striving to be perfect in the eyes of God so that you will stand before God in a better state.
We have taken our pains, our pasts, our torments and nailed them to His Cross, and left them there.
There’s that inconsistency again. If you truly nailed your pains and torments to the cross and left them there then why do you wallow in them? Throughout this piece the author talks about how the Goth carries his/her pain and talks about all the sorrow it causes him/her. If they were nailed to the cross and left there, you would not be caring them around.
We have no past.
We all have a past. Mine was a sinful one until a few short years ago when I accepted Jesus as my savior. I do not dwell on the past. I am not proud of the things I did, yet I need to remember my past to appreciate the changes the Lord has made in my life. I know what I was brought out of and I know where I am headed. Without a past you have no testimony.
We are dead. We celebrate the death of our old selves, our old ways, our old pains, our old natures. We bury them with gladness.
If these things are buried with gladness, then why is there so much of it shown in the attitudes and outlook described in the first two thirds of this piece? If these things have been buried with gladness, then joy should show on you and not all the things previously described by the author as how the Goth perceives his existence.
And we wear black and skulls to show that we are dead. We are the Living Dead, dead to ourselves, but alive in Christ. We live no more, but we live, full of the joy and life of God Himself.
Did the author go out for lunch half way through writing this piece and let someone else finish it? I recall reading that “life sucks”. Now I read that the Goth lives full of the joy and life of God Himself.
Goths wear black and skulls to show that they are dead. I have Christ within whom shines out in my life to show that I am alive for ever more! I don’t need any outward sign to show that. Not even a cross. A Playboy Bunny can wear a cross and it means nothing. How I live my life before others shows that I am a child of God.
We drink blood. Not the blood of others -- mere mortal blood -- but the eternal, immortal blood of Christ, the blood that washed us free of hell. The blood that acted as an acid, eating away the bars that kept us imprisoned in the Hell of our own lives, our own hearts, our own minds, our own pasts. The blood that erased every fist that smashed us, every word that cut us, every body that raped us, every friend that betrayed us. The blood that infused us with life everlasting. And unlike the vampire, this blood gives us the right and joy to embrace the dawn, to marvel at a new day and enjoy what God has given us.We embrace the image of the skull. For in the skull, we see a complete stripping away of our flesh, our death to ourselves, our emptiness before Jesus. All that remains is the foundation of bone, the essence of what Jesus did for us on the Cross. If there is to be any flesh, any face, any identity, it will be that which is formed there by God's own hand. What will emerge then is the image of ourselves as God the master intended, made in His own image, not the image forced upon us by a society void of God or godliness.
Most people see the skull as an emblem of death or wickedness. It is not becoming of a Christian to embrace such symbols. The cross is the universal symbol of Christianity and for good reason. Without the work of the cross we would have no hope. The skull being compatible with the cross is a good representation of the compatibility of Gothism and Christianity.
We are ruled by our hearts. Now, with Jesus living in us, we can express our hope, our optimism that we can change our world.
Being led by your hearts is a big part of the problem. Oh, it sounds noble and all but the bible says that a man’s heart is an evil thing. It would be better to first of all get into God’s word and study it to great depth while having the humility and courage to be guided by what you find there even when it is totally different from what you want it to say and does not set well with your own ideology. Follow the Holy Spirit, not your heart. Your heart is you, so if you follow your heart you are leaning to your own understanding. The bible says not to do that. Let the gospel be the lamp for your feet. Be led by the Holy Spirit and you will not give in to the temptations of the flesh.
For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness: All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.
Mark 7:21-23Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.
Psalm 119:105This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
Galtians 5:16Part 8
We can touch it with love, with change, with hope, with prayer. We are led by our hearts, now full of uncompromised love, befriending the friendless, believing that Jesus can make a difference in true life. We believe not in the mass accumulation of more toys and money, but in the purity of the souls of others. We believe that with Jesus living in our hearts, our hearts can rise above the lies and deceptions that our crass nation forces on us, and can make a difference.
We see the dark side of life. For it is dark. And God came to divide the darkness from the light. And who better understands the need to divide it than those of us who live in the darkness.As a Christian I am a child of the light.
While ye have light, believe in the light, that ye may be the children of light.
John 2:36For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:
Ephesians 5:8Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
1 Thessalonians 5:5Those of us who have known darkness in our souls. Those of us who know that life bites and sucks like an invisible vampire. Who better to take a lit torch to those huddling under stairs than those of us who know darkness. If we come out of the dark, who will remain to be friends to those we leave behind? They need us. So we remain.
You do not help the people in the darkness by keeping them company. We don’t help them by blending in. We help them by sharing the truth with them. Remaining in the darkness is simply not what you are suppose to do according to scripture. This way of thinking is contrary to the teachings of God’s word and the above scriptures prove that to be true.
We know that being a Goth is more than wearing Victorian clothing. Just as we know that being a Christian is more than wearing a WWJD bracelet or swearing blind loyalty to one political party or waving signs in front of an abortion clinic. It is nothing less than total mercy and total forgiveness and total acceptance of another human being as a child of God.Not every human being is a child of God. The unsaved are the children of Hell. The belong to Satan. When you are born again, you are then born into the family of God.
It is saying I love you regardless of you and I will put your needs ahead of my own.
We. I say we. For I am a Goth and a Christian. I know the pain of life. It mocked me and betrayed me. It hurt me and maimed me. It crippled me and broke me. It beat me, raped me and left me for dead. But Jesus picked me up and cleaned me and healed me. And as he wiped my tears, I looked into His eyes. And I noticed that Jesus was a Goth, too.Gothism is of this world. It is of man. Nothing of this corruptible world is in Heaven. The author would no doubt like for Jesus to be a Goth so he could feel justified in being one too.
Idolatry is committed when we create a God in our own image. That is what the author has done in claiming that Jesus is a Goth. People create their own gods and refer to them as though they were the one and only true God. They create gods that match their life style. This way they don’t have to change their life style. They simply made God into a god that fits their own agenda. It’s all in vain. On the day of judgment, the Christians will be judged according to their Christian walk according to how close they lived according to God’s word. Their vain beliefs in a gospel of their own creation will be given no consideration at all.
Jesus knows body piercing -- he has holes in his hands and feet, and a hole in his side so large that his friend Thomas could put his hand inside. He has a ring of scars around his forehead. And his back looks like a spider web of pain.
Jesus was born dead.No, he died on the cross for my sins.
He was born to die. He knew it when He was twelve. He knew it when He was twenty. He knew it when He faced the Cross.
Jesus knows Hell. Not the Hell we live in, the Hell of our own minds and hearts, the Hell created for us by those around us. But the physical place, the place of eternal torment and flame and stench. He knows the hopelessness of not being able to control His own life.
Jesus didn’t have the ability to control his own life? The one who stood on the edge of time and spoke the universe into existence did not have the power to control his own life? That’s just wrong. Jesus always had control, but he was obedient to God the Father unto death. He did not have to go to the cross. He laid down his life willingly.
No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.
John 10:18Jesus knows sorrow. He took mine. He felt mine. He was there every time something happened to me. Jesus knows grief. He lost His dad, Joseph. He grieves over those He cannot save even now.
Jesus can save anyone. It is the individual who is given the choice to be saved or not to be saved. Our job is to convince people to make the right choice.
Jesus knows abandonment. He was abandoned by His best friend Peter. He was abandoned by God Himself.Jesus knows betrayal. He knows the pain of Judas betraying Him with a kiss. He knows the pain of betrayal as I walked away from Him deliberately once.
Jesus prepared Himself for His own death, enjoying the scent of the embalming perfume while He was still alive, enjoying the love of a friend while He still could. And the love of this friend, this prostitute turned holy through true love and forgiveness, this woman that we call Mary Magdalene, was what He left behind for us to see as an act of unselfishness. This was His legacy to us.
Jesus knows skulls. The place where He died is called the Place of the Skull.
Jesus knows.
Jesus is a Goth.-- Nathan Boutwell, Ft. Worth
He is the Alpha, the Omega, the beginning and the end. He is the lilly of the valley, the bright morning star, a cool drink of water to a thirsty soul. He is the savior of the world, the light of the world. He is love. He is creator of Heaven and Earth. He is the Lamb of God. He is the conquer of death, Hell and the grave. He is the Great I Am. He is the author and finisher of our faith. He is the judge of the world. He is the intercessor. He is the Most High. He is God.
To identify such a one as this with something created by corruptible humans is disrespectful in my opinion.
I’ll finish by just making it clear that I do not hate anyone including Goths. I feel I have a Christian duty to shed light and share truth when I see deceit and corrupt teachings. It is an act of Christian love. Sugar coating the truth or pretending something is alright when it is not alright does not help anyone. Knowledge of the truth is what sets us free. Some of those truths may be hard to hear for some people. I try to back up my statements with scripture so that people know they are not just getting my opinion, but the word of God which can always be trusted.
Carl
Author's Response
The following is a response to my comments by the author of this article, "Nathan Boutwell"
Well, thank you for making me famous! Not that it matters. I am used to being persecuted by Christians.
If you can find holiness in dressing like the Mafia, cool. I can't. I've yet to see a Goth or a Punk or a Hippie swindle people out of their wages or destroy the Earth or kill someone for the color of their skin. Normal looking Christians do that all the time. We all have our own personal scriptures we like to hit people with, and I guess we know which ones you and I like, huh?
All I can say is that many Goths have come to Christ through our ministry. Personally, I have a clear conscience. I hope you do, too. Someone needs to go to normal people. It just ain't me. God bless you, but I totally disagree with you. But Jesus is a big God and there is lots of room for all of us.
-- Nathan BoutwellWhile I do not wish to turn this page into an on-going debate on this issue, I will take the opportunity to clarify a few things for Mr. Boutwell and others who may read this article.
I do not know if Mr. Boutwell will respond to this or not. If he does, the visitors to this web site can read his comments in the guest book, but I will not be replying if he chooses to comment further. I have already stated everything that I can on this issue and continued exchanges would only result in me repeating myself, so this is where I shake the dust from my feet and move on.
And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.
Matthew 10:14
I close with the following scripture...
I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
2 Timothy 4:1-4
- Carl Light -
